ABC Nightline features Todd Bentley and Florida Healing Outpouring

Jul 10, 2008 in End Times, Revival | Tags: ABC Nightline, Florida Healing Outpouring, Gay Marriage, Global warming, Healing verifications, Lakeland Revival, Main Stream Media, Miracles in Florida, Planned Parenthood, Pro-life, Revival in Florida, Seat of Scoffers, Todd Bentley

ABC Nightline’s feature last night on Todd Bentley and the Florida Healing Outpouring was hardly favorable. Is anyone surprised? Gnat-straining camel swallowers in the Body of Christ were given much to delight and gloat over. The lost watching world was shown what the devil would want them to see. Todd Bentley was surely disappointed. Obadiah 1:12 came to me early this morning… “Do not gloat over your brother’s day of misfortune.” I’m sure few, if any, among those in the seat of scoffers will be restrained by this verse, or any other, for that matter.

I’ve been to the meetings in Lakeland. It was apparent to me the ABC Nightline folks went there to get the angle they were after and they got it. They missed much as well. They found a precious wheelchair-bound girl on the streets of Lakeland who has had multiple unfortunate encounters with the revival’s street evangelism teams who, no doubt with good intentions, invited (and probably pressured) her to the attend the healing meetings. She shared the pain of people being insensitive to her. I could fully relate as my father-in-law has been wheelchair-bound for nearly 60 years since he contracted polio at age 14. My wife has numerous stories growing up of being in places like the parking lot at Billy Graham Crusades being accosted by people on the way out that told him he’d “get up out of the chair if he only had faith.” This isn’t what the street evangelism teams told the girl in Lakeland, but the effect was the same. I attended the street evangelism training in Lakeland last month and yes, they do need to give people a briefing on sensitivity to the feelings of the infirmed before they send them out.

But, the faithful hitting the streets in Lakeland have something the rest of the church doesn’t, that being… boldness. They are not sent forth with a spirit of timidity, but rather full bold faith in the power of God. Can a person walking in apostolic boldness simultaneously walk in great sensitivity? Yes. But this is a grace that doesn’t typically come initially. Boldness must be tempered by wisdom and discernment. Rather than criticize the street evangelism teams, we need to pray that they walk in wisdom and power, love and compassion.

ABC Nightline could have worked harder to find positive encounters out there on the street – like the lady I heard about when I was there who was planning to commit suicide the day she met a loving couple from the revival in a grocery store parking lot. That lady was baptized in love and hope in that parking lot and gave her life to Jesus Christ.

ABC Nightline found a local shop keeper who viewed the revival negatively. Maybe they should have interviewed the mayor and city council members and got a comment or two on the fact that Todd Bentley, who for 100 days has brought 5000-10,000 people daily to the city, is responsible for bringing millions and millions and millions of dollars into the city’s economy. I’d guess there are mayors all over America who would love to have something like this grace their city. Instead they predictably dug up Bentley’s dark past but neglected to report on his dramatic conversion to Jesus Christ and subsequent dozen years of ministry to the poor, the orphans and hurting worldwide.

ABC Nightline is incapable of any sort of favorable story on anything remotely Christian. I’m not even convinced they are telling the truth when they reported “not one single miracle could be independently verified.” Wow- that went across the airwaves turning the hearts of many against what is happening in Lakeland. But, I can point them to a verifiable miracle. I’ve even seen doctors on the platform in Lakeland standing alongside the healed to testify. Those stewarding the revival apparently need to spoon-feed stories to the media in their media packet but even then, Jesus spoke of a deep-seated societal unbelief, so deep that people won’t even be convinced when the dead are raised right before their eyes. ABC Nightline has a deep-seated disbelief for sure. The light is veiled from their eyes.

But hello, again, getting ABC Nightline to do a favorable story on anything Christian is about as likely as getting the Code Pink gals to do a favorable piece on the Iraq War. ABC and every other main stream media outlet has a distinct and secular (which means godless or without God) agenda. They are the spokespeople for the godless left and are keenly aware that the only thing standing in the way of gay marriage, abortions and decency in broadcasting is THE CHURCH.

I deal with the media here far more than I like because my role in the abortion battle in our state. More times than I can count I’ve found it maddening that the pro-life position is maligned and misrepresented by the media. We hand them facts and stories and testimonies on a silver platter and they don’t even do a story. We got 100 pro-life doctors together for a press conference in ’06 and we had to beg the media to even show up. Yet, Planned Parenthood propaganda gets released and the media parades it across the headlines. Do we not see that these are the same types “reporting” on what is unfolding in Lakeland. They operate in the same denomic spirit. These are the very people who feed the global warming fears with story after story and fully ignore the vast amount of scientific expertise that says its all hoax and false alarm. Are we surprised they found nothing to verify in Lakeland? I’m not.

Many in my world believe an end-time revival is coming that will spread, in part, due to God touching the main stream media. I first grabbed onto these prophecies in the late 80’s when I lived in Kansas City. I still believe them to be true. However, I also know as we more fully enter the end of the age, the world will rage against the people of God. The people of God will be singled out for ridicule and reproach. Jesus said woe to you when men speak well of you. In other words, if they like us, we apparently aren’t much like Him (Jesus). The same hungry and hurting people who liked and flocked to Jesus are the same people who like and flock to Todd Bentley. The same people who feverishly tried to nail Jesus to the tree are the same types trying to nail Bentley today. That’s interesting to note isn’t it?

If you haven’t been to Lakeland to take this all in first hand, here’s one additional important thing ABC Nightline missed. They missed that there is more going on here than one sees on the stage. Most Christians can only imagine what it would be like to stand in such an atmosphere of faith. In this economy, people who buy airline tickets to get closer to where they hear God is moving are desperately hungry people. God always honors that hunger. Being in a tent with 5000-10000 people with that level of hunger places a heavy draw on heaven to visit earth. I’d rather be in that atmosphere any day than among the “Bible Deists” whose only hope for well-being is that their doctor will continue to dish out their antidepressants week after week. I’d rather be in the room with people who bought airline tickets to get a touch from God than sit in all these scoffing churches with people who aren’t hungry enough to drive a couple miles to church more than 2-3 Sunday mornings a month. This ABC Nightline story could have covered the OBVIOUS spiritual hunger in our land. They could have interviewed people who have given up hope on the pharmaceutical and health care industries, people who have no hope but God.

I hope you’ll also read my other posts on Todd Bentley and the Florida Outpouring. My main focus in all of these is that we ought to be really careful that we are not calling unclean what God has called clean. “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Matthew 7:2
Revival in Florida – Todd Bentley and the Seat of Scoffers part one
Florida Healing Outpouring – Todd Bentley and the Seat of Scoffers part two
Florida Healing Outpouring – Todd Bentley and the Seat of Scoffers part three
Florida Healing Outpouring – Todd Bentley and the Angel Emma
Florida Healing Outpouring – Todd Bentley, Violence and the Kingdom of God
Florida Healing Outpouring – Todd Bentley, the manifestations of the Spirit or Kundalini?
Todd Bentley, C. Peter Wagner and apostolic alignment at the Florida Healing Outpouring
Florida Revival – Todd Bentley answers his critics, Dr. Gary S. Greig gets healed and provides an independent theological witness
A parody; the doctrine police take a break from straining gnats at the Lakeland Healing Outpouring to take aim at Psalm 23
Florida Healing Outpouring – Is Todd Bentley a New Age Mystic?

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54 comments

Jul 10, 2008 at 9:47 am

iamhealed.net » Blog Archive » ABC Nightline “report” on Todd Bentley and the Lakeland Revival

[…] Hickey at the GatePost had a bit more to say, along those same lines… go check it […]

Jul 10, 2008 at 10:36 am

Anita

Thank you so much for this affirmative, edifying and well-put article on Todd Bentley and the Lakeland Outpouring. Although I have not been there I can actually feel the presence of the Almighty right in my bedroom as I watch what God is doing through this bold vessel Todd Bentley. God has said He does not look at the outward appearance, but looks at the heart and that is what even many Christians have done — looked at the outer appearance. Because Todd does not fit what we expect in a preacher there is much criticism, yet many, I feel, will not discern this visitation from the Holy Spirit. Todd’s style is not your “Sunday service” style of preaching, but it is sound. All across the churches there is a hunger for more of God and the churches are complacent, not seeking, feeling like there’s got to be more and now that we have this outpouring people are flocking to what their inner Spirit has been telling them all along — “I want more out of Christianity and am tired of being a mediocre Christian” Yet many more are against what the Lord is doing. Lord revive us again, we need You.

Jul 10, 2008 at 11:23 am

Anonymous

“Todd Bentley, who for 100 days has brought 5000-10,000 people daily to the city, is responsible for bringing millions and millions and millions of dollars into the city’s economy.”

Wow, Todd!! You are amazing!!

I think we need to be careful to put our trust in any man. I think it is great that God is using Todd Bentley or most likely others behind the scene that no one even knows about. We should be putting our trust in Jesus and be boasting about Him. Who knows, we might all find out that the Florida outpouring is a bunch of hyped up hogwash. If it turns out to be something different than what the promoters are purporting it to be, it would not change the fact that Jesus is still God and heals today. This ownership cult of personality stuff has got to stop. Let’s quit lifting up man and putting our trust in man leaders and start putting our trust in Jesus Christ the Leader of leaders.

Jul 10, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Steve Hickey

Thank for commenting – didn’t mean to be lifting Todd too high up. I certainly am not bowing before any personality here. Meant for the comment to underscore a good aspect while so many others underscore bad aspects and figured the dollars pouring into the city is an aspect the outside-world-looking-in would have appreciated.

Jul 10, 2008 at 1:25 pm

Cindy

I watched the interview and I thought it wasnt overly biased against him, I am sure they missed things…they always do..but still not a all bad interview..I thought Todd answered the questions well, a bit too much about Todd instead of God but hey it’s his revival…

Jul 10, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Kurt Michaelson

I agree with this statement from Pastor David Wilkerson that applies to Todd Bentley and those who follow him.

“America itself has become the world’s worst pusher of deceptive gospels. How? Christians have become biblically illiterate. They don’t bother to read God’s Word anymore. They’re not willing to fast or spend time in prayer. Instead, they run here and there, seeking out the flesh-pleasing teaching of some compromised evangelist.

“How could multitudes of believers fall for such deceptions? How could they be so easily led astray? How did these masses become so blind to false works of the flesh? Amos tells us why: their protective walls are down, because of sin. God has removed the horns from the altar. And the people have lost all discernment. Such believers will be among the first to embrace the Antichrist.” David Wilkerson, October 9, 2002, The Trumpet Is Sounding But No One Is Alarmed

Jul 10, 2008 at 2:50 pm

carl thomas

My wife and I cringed when we watched the interview. We turned it off at one commercial break. I think Todd is not as media savvy as he thinks he is. He never seems to come off as himself with the news media.

He is a fairly aggressive evangelist. Yet with the media he kind of does the fawn thing. I think he should be a little more bombastic. The media eats that stuff up.

I am no “the media is the tool of satan” person but this was a pretty biased interview. Nobody healed in 100 meetings yet the media has not produced one person who was manipulated into lying on stage?

I agree with Kurt that many in the church have lost their discernment. But I would disagree about what they are being deceived with. It seems that people are desperate to cling to a powerless Gospel about a deist God far removed from the lives of believers.

And I am doubly alarmed how these “discerning” ministers do not fear the Lord as they gossip and smear the name of other Christians.

Jul 10, 2008 at 3:27 pm

Steve Hickey

cindy – thanks for commenting!

kurt – great Wilkerson quote though I have a different set of folks I think it applies to. Blessings to you.

carl – thanks for commenting! I cringed my way though the interview as well and have said before in these posts how there are perhaps a half dozen things I’d change about this revival if I were the boss of it. But, I’m not, so I’m choosing to focus on the good stuff and be careful with my tongue.

I love a friend of mine’s comment on the revival when he got back home from Lakeland. He said… “this is mostly God.” I shared that with another minister in town and he jumped all over it – “Shouldn’t it be all God??” My reply was, “brother, what percentage of your Sunday service last week was God?” He conceded my point. I’m praying that Christ would increase and we would decrease.

I’m about to adopt a “comments policy” similar to the one on your blog because there is such a vicious spirit out there flowing from these self-appointed discernment police. These folks have no idea the power of word curses. Ugh.

Jul 10, 2008 at 4:31 pm

carl thomas

I am baffled at how people treat one another “in the Name.” Reading through your blog I probably run after Lakeland a little harder than you but you probably have more wisdom than me.

Keep posting and delete the junk. Life is to short to either entertain or argue with fools.

That was good. I should preach that. lol

Jul 10, 2008 at 4:42 pm

Brandi

Steve – I want to thank you for posting this blog… sincerely, sincerely thank you. It is an encouragement to me. Last night, I went with a friend to meet with her pastors after a concerned family member thought she might be getting involved with a ‘cult’ by watching/visiting the Lakeland outpouring. In the end, the pastors voiced their concerns, stopped short of calling Bentley a false prophet, and then cautioned my friend to go with her ‘eyes open’ in order to not be deceived. This is all good advice for any move of God. But no one ever wakes up in the morning planning to be deceived by Satan… No one intentionally believes God to be something He isn’t. I woke up with so many questions this morning for God… Wanting to guard my heart and make the right choices. I watched a portion of last night’s interview on the web, and it was very discouraging. Your blog is the first thing I’ve read today about the nightline interview that left me feeling at peace. So thank you very much and God bless you.

Jul 10, 2008 at 6:55 pm

Steve, I watched Nightline last night and totally concur with your response. I was baffled how a news reporter could attend a three hour “miracle a minute” meeting and not talk to someone that had been healed. They did however seek out every scoffer they could find.

ABC kept stating this was “Bentley’s” revival and focused totally on him.
I thought Todd did a good job of trying to correct this but who knows what was left lying on the editing room floor.

Anyone who’s been to Lakeland knows this revival is about Jesus – not Todd Bentley. I’m sure Satan wants him to sit down and shut up.

Jul 10, 2008 at 6:57 pm

Oengus Moonbones

Greeting, Steve:

I am not surprised about Nightline. I think I have commented about this a while back, saying:

“…the news media is only interested in spiritual revivals insofar as they can be mined as a source of sensationalism, or if journalists think they can detect in them any sort of political implications. In the end, the Numero Uno Priority of the MSM has been and always will be to sell advertising.”

The mainstream media operates largely on the theory that everything must be made to fit into the Elmer Gantry Paradigm.

Jul 10, 2008 at 11:59 pm

kathleen Bashor

A lot of people are looking a tod and his attoo. i am in my 50 and i see God all over Tod. Thank God for him. His love and laughter and the shine on his face, got me and my husband more hungrey for God. So preise God forhim.

Jul 11, 2008 at 7:14 am

Joseph

The constant attempts to build a bridge between the secular and the spiritual will consistently meet with the same kind of assessments as the ABC Nightline show produced.

Ultimately, God will be God without help from anyone of us, regardless of how much we ridicule what He does through flawed and fallible men, whether that ridicule comes from the secular world or from ‘professing’ Christians.

David, Samson, Joseph, Moses, Peter… and the list goes on and on, were all flawed men used by God to touch their world. Those who can, do. Those who can’t, criticize those who are doing. Steven, as usual, a well thought out and well articulated piece.

Jul 11, 2008 at 8:33 am

Teresa

Steve, I’m not sure this is the right spot for this, but I read your last little comment on Twitter-Shouldn’t you be rejoicing instead of complaining? It’s hard singing through the pain, isn’t it? Remember Matthew 5:10, Matt 5:12 and John 15:20(NIV)-makes it a lot easier! Blessings-TK

Jul 11, 2008 at 8:55 am

Steve Hickey

It’s hard to sing through pain Teresa! How true is that! I know I’m in good company though in terms of taking heat for truth. Thanks for sharing these key Scriptures. I’m deleting one comment for every one I’m posting as people are so vicious. Yesterday I deleted six and am stunned by the unbridled tongue on professed believers.

PC said in an earlier post a blog is like a living room conversation. Nobody has to agree, but courtesy and respect is Christ mandated. You’ve been reading long enough to know that the anonymous post-ers who take cheap shots at me and others are the main things I take issue with, not so much whether they like the revival or agree with my theology.

Joseph! Your first sentence is so very true (as are those that follow!)

Kathleen, thanks for commmenting and I’m so delighted to see the the fruit of this revival for you is a greater love for Jesus. Many are saying this revival is the fruit of demons. Yet, demons don’t make people love JEsus more.

Oengus – great to hear from you again! You are right on. Elmer Gantry is the world’s only “grid” for processing some of this. Where I’m disheartened is that it seems to be the same for the church folks – their only grid for this is an elmer gantry grid. It’s a shame the Bible grid isn’t our sole grid. Wilder stuff than we are seeing in Florida is spelled out in the Bible.

PC – I’m equally baffled in a miracle-a-minute environment they could not find more positive. I guess we can conclude they weren’t looking for positive.

Brandi – your comment makes what I’m doing here worthwhile. My wife and my secretary told me yesterday they don’t know why I open myself up to such abuse. It’s because I know there were 800 people who read my post yesterday just on the Nightline report alone. And I’ve heard from several like you who found it helpful. This is really a good format to gather hundreds of people every day – many from our church – to talk about God and the Bible and even disciple people into the deeper things of God. I guess 50 hostile people is the price I pay to help 750 others. I’m hearing from pastors who were against this revival altogether, after they read my take on it, they soften and say they aren’t going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. As a result, they are relaxing what they are speaking against and people in their churches are free to check it out. If God touches one person because I was somehow a part of God helping another pastor think about this differently then it’s all worth it.

Carl – life is to short to entertain or argue with fools – great line. My problem is I’m a fighter and have to seek Christ’s constraining lest I swing back. Hard to not respond sometimes when I have a headful of things to say sometimes. Blessings to you!!!

Jul 11, 2008 at 10:55 am

Christina

Pastor Steve- Your blog has made a big difference in my life. The last few months have been extremely tough for me and my family, and the light of Christ that you have shined through your blog has really guided us more and more into the things of Christ. I appreciate so much your efforts online and at Church at the Gate. Our family would be in a much sorrier state without your leadership, teaching and guidance. I thank God so much for you and for his work through you. May He bless you, lead you, and guide you. We love you, Brother Steve!!!

Jul 11, 2008 at 6:05 pm

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Jul 11, 2008 at 6:56 pm

foreverlonging

I have had a wide range of thoughts around the gatherings in Lakeland, about Todd Bentley and even some of he things that are happening here in our city. I do agree with the comment from Anonymous, about the hype not being on Todd’s works, but instead on the works of God. I understand your point Steve in only using it to underscore a positive note that everyone (including the secular world) may appreciate.

My thoughts have always returned to this – there are going to be things said and done at any gathering or on any blog site that we, as Christians may disagree with or me even take offense to. But it is our job to be very careful to not let ourselves slip into a state of complete disbelief of everything that happened just because one movement or one statement made by a few didn’t sit right with our spirit of discernment. Satan will use that one person or that one action or statement to get us to turn completely away from a God movement and causing division among the body. I am sure this goes back to another one of your blogs somewhere along the line. I know you have spoken about it before.

Another thought is – Yes the miracles that are happening in Lakeland are most definitely because of God and not man, but Todd Bentley does deserve credit for one thing and that is his own obedience. He walks in a level of obedience that many can not relate to.

Jul 11, 2008 at 10:06 pm

A Christian broadcaster in secular media

I don’t know about Todd Bentley. I pray for him. I do have reservations but I also know God can heal.

What I do have issue with from the above article is the quote, ” ABC and every other main stream media outlet has a distinct and secular (which means godless or without God) agenda. They are the spokespeople for the godless left and are keenly aware that the only thing standing in the way of gay marriage, abortions and decency in broadcasting is THE CHURCH.” Not EVERYONE in the media is godless. I am a Christian who fights the battle every day as a TV Host/Producer. It is a lot of spiritual warfare. We need you to pray for us instead of complaining about what’s wrong, pray. I believe strongly in being a light. Matthew 5:16. Yes a lot is wrong about the media today but PLEASE pray for Christians in this field and for God to place us strategically as Kingdom builders and to empower and protect us. We really need intercessors to help us take back the airwaves for God.

A Christian broadcaster in secular media

Jul 11, 2008 at 11:00 pm

rahabsplace

Todd’s getting death-threats and I have little doubt some of them are coming from some of our nutcase brethren who are contending for their “truth.”

In light of that, if you had been healed in Lakeland, would you want your personal information all over the media and internet? Standing up and testifying on the platform for 10 seconds is one thing, but having Nightline on your property and your name, address, condition and other personal information out all over for the wold to see?

There’s more to this than, “we can’t find.” I don’t think they looked, but I also think that a lot of people don’t want the media attention.

Jul 12, 2008 at 3:58 am

dkovaleski

Thanks for the blog post. I wouldn’t get down about some of the comments. I am always amazed when Christians are perplexed that the secular media doesn’t cover a story, especially one about God in a positive manner. Honestly, what do they expect? Do we need confirmation from a secular media that what we believe is happening in the spiritual realm is real? I don’t need Nightline to verify that healings have taken place to make it a reality. I know they happen because I believe in a God who performs healings and miracles, not because a reporter has verified the fact. Maybe it is because I was raised in in the pentacostal/charasmatic movement I haven’t had a problem with what was going on in Florida. Is Mr. Bently this generations Katherine Kuhlman or Benny Hinn? all controversial figures with many people on both sides. I have been in revivals with what you called the atmosphere of faith and know what it is like, but does it make one less spiritually hungry if they don’t desire to travel to Florida to stand in the tent? I personally have a burning desire and passion to see what is happening in Lakeland happen in Sioux Falls, but really didn’t have the desire to go to Florida personally. I have watched it on the internet multiple times. I can understand if people want to go, for revival in their own lives spiritually or for healing, but I don’t think the converse is necessarily true, that if one stays in their home town or church and prays for revival it makes them any less of a spiritual warrior or Christian, even if the their church was two or three miles away. Also, I would love to be out of a job because everyone was healed of their medical problems, particularly the ones I see, but if someone continues to see their personal doctor for problems, even to get their antidepressants handed out to them, does that make them less spiritual? I hope not. I don’t think the points are mutually exclusive. I think God can use the health care industry and the pharmaceutical industry to touch people, but to think somehow the people who have turned their back on the health care industry are at a higher spiritual plain than those who continue to seek care from a medical professional isn’t necessarily true. I think God uses various ways to reach multiple people. I think it’s dangerous to try and paint everyone with the same brush and that if someone doesn’t fit in the hole we think they should they are somehow wrong. Thanks for blogging and your passion, keep up the good work. You are a super teacher and I have learned much from reading these posts. It’s an honor to serve with you.

Jul 12, 2008 at 5:15 am

Tony Hewitt

Steve,Thankyou for your report at the top of the the page.
We have seen the media do this to Benny Hinn and Rodney Howard Brown and we have seen all the negative stuff with Benny too.
We initially promoted Benny Hinn videos to the New Zealand market and we virtually got hate mail, anti literature stuffed in between pages of books in my Christian bookshop etc, etc all with love from my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
Sad.

Jul 12, 2008 at 6:03 am

Steve Hickey

Christina – thanks for commenting and letting God use you to encourage me! We love you guys and are praying God will see your through this tough season!

Foreverlonging – important stuff – thanks for sharing it.

Christianbroadcaster – I honor you and really appreciate you calling me on this point. Most of my interaction with media is negative and that obviously came across and its certainly not fair to cast it all in a bad light. It’s totally my heart to take back these sphere of influence for the Kingdom of God – encourage our people (and young people) to be salt/light in media, government, etc. I do and will continue to pray God strategically positions and empowers folks like you in secular media. Blessings!

rahabsplace – good point on people wanting privacy – I’m sure it is a contributing factor in why Nightline couldn’t find ONE validatable healing.

dkovaleski – many many good comments – thanks – you too (like christianbroadcaster above) have added a needed tempering to my post. Certainly didn’t intend to offend Christians in the media or the whole medical industry in just a few paragraphs. I kind of feel like I went hunting for ducks and inadvertently stuck some buckshot in the guide and bird dog. Whoops. My point is not to denegrate doctors or medicine in anyway, my point is to call out those who have little hunger for God and no belief that he can touch their life in any freeing way. Regarding the need to make the pilgrimage to Florida – I think it’s important that a wave of folks went for impartation and that they come back with a hot coal to intensify the fervency for God that is already underway back home. No need to the entire Body of Christ to go. I think that intial wave has happened. Let’s not forget that lunch – this week is bad, the next week is good. You are a blessing!!!!!

Tony – greetings to you in New Zealand! I continue to be stunned to hear of Christians doing things like planting anti/literature in the books in your store. Very very sad. Here’s what I want to stand up and shout – WHEN WE RECOGNIZE WE HAVE A COMMON ENEMY WE WILL CEASE SHOOTING AT EACH OTHER – ONLY THEN WILL THE KINGDOM ADVANCE, THE DARKNESS RETREAT AND ONLY THEN WILL JESUS’ JOHN 17 PRAYER BE ANSWERED.

I heard last night at a meeting that Benny Hinn feeds 32,000 hungry children a day. I’d guess those who campaign against him feed no children but their own.

Jul 12, 2008 at 6:11 am

Tony Hewitt

Thanks Steve I say AMEN to that

Jul 12, 2008 at 8:43 am

Teresa

Thanks dkovaleski-You put into words very nicely what I’ve been feeling but didn’t know how to express. Steve, I thank you for your blogs, and continue to pray for this whole situation, and for the whole point to be about JESUS working in peoples lives, in whatever way He chooses. Anonymous, I liked your point as well-lets make sure whose name we’re glorifying. Blessings to all of you! You are my brothers and sisters in Christ, let us keep on praying!-TK

Jul 12, 2008 at 12:02 pm

LadyofFe

Carl Thomas I totally agree with you. Thanks Pastor Steve for this post.

Todd is just a man, but, he is a man being used by God to start a fire. And to have other Christians come out swinging, smearing, nit picking and tearing apart this man and this move of God, is beyond disturbing. Anyone who thinks they know all the bible, and understands God completely, has a pride problem. Anyone who thinks God can’t protect His children (born again Christians) from being lead astray to follow other gods, that person must think satan has more power than God.

Can anyone of these people who despises this move of God, please tell me what church or denomination has the 100% complete full gospel down 100% right, 100% of the time? I haven’t found that church yet. In fact many denominations cling to man made traditions, that make null and void the word of God.

When I’ve talked to these people they usually can’t answer simple questions, with coherent answers or they don’t answer at all.
If this is a false revival:
Why is the name of Jesus being lifted up?

Why do they worship 2 hours at a time?

Why are people being healed by the 1000’s?

Do you really think that when God touches the flesh it isn’t going to react?

Why are people by the 1000’s being saved and delivered? I’ve heard it’s satan trying to fool us. That was the only answer I’ve gotten for that one.

If this isn’t a move of God, I don’t know what is.

Jul 12, 2008 at 9:25 pm

Christine

I am a believer who watched some of the Lakeland meetings back in April. Since then, I’ve done a lot of research about the movement Todd is connected with. Before you dismiss all those like me, who are trying to do our homework, please remember that we are cautioned in scripture to judge and discern the truth. Particularly, we are told that in the end times deception will run riot. So, I am not apologetic about delving into this.

I think a common misconception among those who believe in this revival is that because Todd and the others are sincere and hardworking, they must be right. But most of the world is sincerely wrong! My issue (and that of others) is not his/their sincerity, but their doctrine and power source. This branch of the prophetic movement embraces many extrabiblical ideas. For example, they believe in an “omega generation” created from superior lines that will put down iniquity and usher in righteousness, after which Jesus will return to a cleaned-up earth. They believe that Christ will be incarnated in this omega generation, composed of children who were born between 1973 and 1990 and who have indestructable, immortal bodies.

Now, I think it’s pretty clear they didn’t get this from the Bible. The Word of God gives no such dates, timetables or facts. Actually, what I read in the Bible is that things will get worse and worse before Christ returns, to the point that he wonders aloud if there will even be faith on the earth when he comes. But these dates and notions are what we call “special revelation”–very dangerous stuff.

I was in a church that embraced special revelation, back when I was in my twenties. I saw and experienced the damage, the dysfunction. My challenge to the prophetic movement is this: bring in some people like Chuck Colson to examine your doctrine, people highly respected by the whole Body of Christ. And don’t claim you couldn’t do that because they wouldn’t understand. Bring it all out into the light—all those hidden teachings I had to dig around to learn! Let everyone know what you believe! And, if you won’t, there is our cue that your doctrine is off. In case there are any out there who would like to do some study, I would recommend a book I found online written by Travis and Jewel Van der Merwe, about the New Gnosticism. It was written years ago, but reads uncannily like a manual for the movement Todd is leading. Jewel Van Der Merwe runs a ministry called Discernment Ministries.

The root of the matter is this: anytime you elevate experience to the level of scripture, or place it above scripture, you are in trouble. May God grant discernment and understanding to his church in these perilous times!

Jul 12, 2008 at 10:39 pm

foreverlonging

Christine – based on your comment “The root of the matter is this: anytime you elevate experience to the level of scripture, or place it above scripture, you are in trouble.” it seems to me that you are saying we are not supposed to have experiences that are paralleled with those in scripture.

If that is truly what you are saying I would like to take the liberty of reminding the readers of John 14:11-13 “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.”

I take this to be a mandate not just a simple statement. We are mandated to do the miracles and works that Christ did on this earth. I can not think of any area in the bible that says that we as God’s people are to be a powerless body of believers and we are not to experience the miracles and signs and wonders that were experienced when Christ walked this earth in the flesh.

When we sit back and lower the scripture to our level of experience we are in no way glorifying God. Every demonstration of his power is merely his love for us and it points back to Christ and the glory and honor due to him.

You are right. We are to be very discerning, but in no way does that mean we lower the scripture to mean something other than what it says.

Jul 13, 2008 at 11:35 am

WE must stop throwing Bible verses around and take the whole BIBLE….
ALSO there are way to many lies coming out of Bentley’s mouth, talk of angels, third heaven, hurting people etc etc.
OUR faith in Christ heals us, not a lying man.

Jul 13, 2008 at 2:44 pm

Steve Hickey

Christine – thanks for your comment and for being gracious in sharing how you think Lakeland is not of God. I welcome the conversation and do not consider you a scoffer.

I’ll take this opportunity to restate what I’ve stated many times about what constitutes a scoffer (in my opinion – explain who I’m refering to as I use the word on this blog). I scoffer is NOT someone who honestly is searching the Scriptures and testing the spirits, etc. A scoffer is one with fix judgments about something who goes public with those judgments in unChristlike and unkind ways (usually doing so by shooting arrows from places of concealment – Psalm 64) – they are putting others in the spotlight while hiding in the shadows themselves via deceptive alias’ online. THat’s who I’m talking about when I use the word scoffer. I’m primarily using this term to describe a few of the very popular self-appointed anonymous online doctrine police who are so vicious to others in the body of Christ. I’ve had good people get upset that I’m using this term to describe them or anyone else who is honestly searching the Scriptures on these manners. I’m not using the term to refer to these people. Even people who come forth rejecting Lakeland aren’t scoffers in my book as long as they stay kind, respectful and loving. I continue to be amazed the someone could say Bentley is operating under a demonic spirit when an obviously unloving spirit is flowing from them.

Back to Christine – What on earth are you talking about saying “this branch of the prophetic movement believes in an “omega generation” created from superior lines…” Indeed that is goofy. But I have never heard that before and that is just not true that this “branch” of the prophetic movement is teaching that – I am very familiar with the literature and personalities of the modern prophetic movement and there maybe somebody out there espousing those ideas but that is not at all what is going on with the people involved with Lakeland.

Even your concern regarding “special revelation.” I understand the caution, but indeed the Bible is clear that prophecy is real, very real. And that the gift would be common – in every church, every weekend – Paul said prophecy will come forth. The safeguard is the Word of God. We judge and check prophetic words against the Word of God.

In my theology classes in seminary, Jesus and the Bible are “special revelation.” Creation was “general revelation.” I think you mean to say “Progressive revelation” is your concern, not special revelation. Progressive relevation is stuff that God supposedly speaks today that cancels and trumps what he said in the past. I, and the majority in the prophetic movement full reject progressive revelation.

Can I ask you this? Do you believe God has stopped speaking today since we now have the Bible? If you do, you have to white out some verses in your New Testament. What I see going on is evangelicals – I am one by the way – base their theology of their lack of experience not on the Word of God. Since it hasn’t happened to them, it must not be for today. I agree with your point that experience can’t be what we base anything on. The Bible never says the miraculous or prophetic stuff stops.

A comment now to “D” – Though you won’t think so, I am convinced we are using the whole Bible and not throwing verses around. I encourage YOU to stop throwing around false accusations. Words like “lies” and “lying man” are easy to use. I fully disagree with your assessment of the reality of angels, third heaven, etc. But I restrain myself from calling you deceived or several other things. I’m constrained by the passages that caution us about not passing judgment on disputable matters. I’m constrained by the verses that teach I can have my doctrine 100% but if I don’t have love I’m nothing more than a resounding gong – a noisemaker. The WHOLE BIBLE speaks of third heaven experiences, angels, even the Kingdom of God coming violently. It’s fine for you to reject how some interpret those passages, but you do have to love. Otherwise, it becomes apparent that you are following someone other than Jesus – those following him, the Bible says, are known by the love they have for one another. Blessings to you.

Jul 13, 2008 at 3:12 pm

Ian

Good post again Steve, thanks,

Interestingly I found a different take on the Nightline slot on an atheism blog that said (I seem to have lost it now, I don’t subscribe) something to the effect of “although they confronted him on the issue of the fake healings, the piece was otherwise highly credulous and supportive.”

I guess in the culture war the media can’t please either side.

Jul 13, 2008 at 3:17 pm

Lakeland Quotes

Well, Mr. Hickey:

I appreciate your kind words and how you handle critics and criticisms. I applaud you.

But, I will still agree with the July 12th comment posted by Christine.

Call it Progressive Revelation, or Special Revelation, ANY revelation that CONTRADICTS Scripture must be thrown away.

I am a pentecostal.
I have seen NUMEROUS healings in my body, and in bodies that I have laid hands on.
I speak in tongues and believe in the gift of tongues and interpretation.
I believe in Words of Knowledge, gifts of healings, the gift of miracles, the gift of prophecy and all as stated in 1 Corinthians.

HOWEVER, to I must state once again, if a prophecy, or revelation, or tongue, etc. CONTRADICTS Scripture, then it must be tossed out of the church … not embraced.

As anyone who has google searched Bentley’s teachings will know, Todd does indeed teach experiences which ARE contradictory to the Bible.

Female Angels — no where found in the Bible
Angels being UNCREATED — taught by Bob Jones on the Lakeland stage on May 13th and agreed to by Bentley and totally contradicting Scripture
Astral Projection — taught by Bentley as something that should be common and expected by Christians, yet not a doctrine taught by Christ or any Apostle
Third Heaven visits AT MAN’S WILL whenever man wants — NOT Biblical, nor taught by Christ or any Apostle
Vibrating which opens or closes portals to the spirit realm — as taught on May 13th on the Lakeland stage — not found in the Bible, but is an occult viewpoint

Mr Hickey, the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us.

We must not go beyond Scripture. ALL Scripture is given to us for “life and godliness” {2 Peter 1:3-4}. God was not ignorant, leaving the end time church to figure out on its own, what extra ‘stuff’ they would need for the end times.

God already told us ALL we need to know to get through the end times, and gave us ALL the tools we need to get through the end times. The Bible really IS sufficient and has all that we need to be over-comers !!

And, by the way …. Rick Joyner’s book entitled THE HARVEST is where you will find that this Prophetic Movement, ie: Todd Bentley et al, DO believe the end-time generation will clean up the earth for Jesus and over come death. Joyner goes as far as to say on Page 121 of THE HARVEST that the RAPTURE is a heresy and needs to be rejected by the church.

My brother, do not believe every spirit, but check the teachings of the spirits against the Word of God, which is FOREVER settled in heaven.

In Christ’s love,
Lee

Jul 13, 2008 at 5:37 pm

steve hickey

Lee- your comments are very appreciated. What Christine said about a super line generation and what joyner wrote seem very very different to me. I interpreted her comment to be about a special super human race or something. As understand Biblical eschatology, the last generation WILL walk in power and serve on earth alongside Christ in the millenium reign. I don’t joyners book in front of me but I have read it and own it- I don’t recall him rejecting the rapture. Perhaps he rejects a pre-trib rapture. I believe in the rapture for sure – just can’t find one verse that says its before the trib. But different interpretations on this kind of thing aren’t reasons to disfellowship.

I strongly agree nothing can contradict the Bible. Is there a difference between what the Word says and what people interpret it to say? Yes. That’s why we need to be graceful. Is there a difference ever between what ministers actually say and what people hear them say? Yes. It happens every week. I heard bob jones speak that night – I have no recollection of him saying God uncreated angels. Gof could uncreate me if he choose to – I don’t know what uncreate means or why this is even important. Point by point in your comments my sense is people are taking the words further than they originally go – astral projection??? Bentley doesn’t teach it. Being physically translated is Biblical. So is having out of body experiences or having supernatural encounters in other places or realms. But to say he promotes astral projection. No way.

I weary of the female angel concern. There is a passage with two female angels in the Bible- Zech 5. I’ve expounded on this at length in my post and comments on bentley and the angel emma. We could be entertaining angels at any time fully unaware because they appear in human likeness – does that verse mean only in male likeness? No. They are neither male nor female but appear however and whenever. Are they only caucasion as the Bible doesn’t mention a black one? There is no asain appearing angel in the Bible. Ugh. I weary of this point. I may say more later about your other comments. I’m not able to check out your website on “lakeland quotes” from here. When the Bible says love keeps no record of wrongs do you suppose we can apply this to ministers who say something “off” (in our view) on occasion? I’m glad people don’t start listing all the various things I’ve ever said. Please don’t misunderstand me as I’m not saying gross doctrinal error should get a free pass. I’m just blogging away on this topic with an ache in my heart that there is such a deep seated critical spirit in the Body of Christ and I see the specks of interpretive err and doctrinal difference to be quite small compared to the giant log of unbridaled and unloving judgmentalism. I am thankful for your grace and loving tone.

Jul 13, 2008 at 11:54 pm

Christine

Steve,

Just for everyone’s information, I do believe in the work of the Holy Spirit (bearing in mind always that when God selected one adjective to describe his Spirit, he chose the word “holy”). I have experienced miracles in my body and in my family and community. My husband and I left a church 11 years ago because of its rigid Reformed theology that gave no room for the Spirit to speak into our minds and hearts apart from the literal words of scripture.

But……I have been there/done that with the private revelation groups. Never again! These groups that get private messages and will not submit them to the larger Body of Christ, sharing them only with the inner core, are DANGEROUS. Please review my paragraph about Chuck Colson.

I have done my homework on this one, and I do know about the “omega generation,” created from superior lines….the best DNA saved for the last. Have you researched this branch of the prophetic movement? I am a professional writer, and I now have about 70 or 80 hours clocked on this subject. If you check into the history of the Kansas City Prophets, who have been resurrected for the third or fourth time in this latest manifestation, you will learn of a blueprint that was given to the leaders (Mike Bickle, Paul Cain, Bob Jones, etc.) back in the 1980s. It goes something like this: Joel’s Army members, born between 1973 and 1990, will have immortal bodies, and will clean up the earth (with a Phineas spirit, that may even include bloodshed for righteousness’ sake). Christ will somehow be incarnated in this Army and then will return to a cleaned-up earth. Latter Rain movement ideas….condemned by the Assembly of God decades ago.

The reason all this is so dangerous is that these people, believing as they do, may attempt to make all this triumphal stuff happen in the flesh. They believe a billion-soul harvest will be reaped under their apostolic authority (ultimately, of course, they believe they are going to rule over the earth). I won’t try to flesh out the ramifications of all this private revelation here, but some of them could keep me awake at night.

Couple that blueprint with Todd’s welcoming William Branham’s healing angel and mantle a few years ago (Branham was a very strange healer who died in 1965 and seemed to get more and more into the occult as time went on, even pronouncing toward the end of his life that he had found the “Christ” in India) and it all spells trouble, in my judgment. We’re not talking theological quibbles here; I’m talking suspect power source!

And much more……but it’s late. Enough for tonight. Before you address me again (if you choose to), I would recommend you read Ernie Gruen’s 132-page Aberrant Document about the Kansas City Prophets. You can find it online. It will explain a lot. I heard from Ernie himself just a couple of days ago. He still stands by every word of his document (I asked)–a piece of writing that blew the Kansas City Prophets out of the water in 1991.

These prophets are connected with Todd Bentley.

Jul 14, 2008 at 8:05 am

Steve Hickey

Christine – your comments are welcome because your tone is gracious and Christlike. I appreciate you sharing a bit of your own journey for context – leaving the Reformed Church only to get hurt in some prophetic group. There are many traditional churches of every denomination that deeply hurt people and also many in the charismatic world that hurt people. I’m sorry you discovered that to be true the hard way.

Maybe some background on me will help. I had to smile at your sharing you’ve logged 70-80 hours studying this subject. My friends in Kansas City log more time than that in two week just in the prayer room. I’m not exaggerating at all – 40 hours in the prayer room a week is common there. People, some of whom I know personally have no real prayer life, are criticizing a praying people – it grieves me.

Ok, you have 80 hours, I have two decades. I’m from Kansas City – my dad is buried one mile from IHOP. In the late 80’s my wife and I attended Kansas City Fellowship during the days of the emergence of the Kansas City Prophets. When Ernie Gruen publicly challenged Bickle, it rocked our world – we ultimately withdrew from KCF. Shortly thereafter Ernie Gruen LEFT HIS WIFE.

My wife and I left Kansas City to go to evangelical seminaries – I said driving out of Kansas City… “If it’s not written in the Bible it’s not from God.” We fully rejected the prophetic movement though inside I knew I had experienced much from God. In 1996, the Holy Spirit thumped me at a Promise Keeper clergy conference and I slowly made my way back to “Kansas City.” Mike Bickle wrote a book on these turbulent times – Growing in the Prophetic. I encourage you to add that to your list of reading material on this topic. In that book he talked about the immaturity and the problems in the early stages of the prophetic release there. This is a very long story so pardon me if there are gaps as I’m not planning to share it all here.

I’m very surprised to hear you say that Ernie still stands by what he says in that paper because that would mean he has changed his mind again. He fully renounced it previously. I personally spoke with him two years ago here in South Dakota and when he figured out my connection to him – I’d only met him briefly before – his chin hit the floor and he apologized for hurting me and so many people with what he’s done and said. The problem is, there is no way to retrack this paper against Mike Bickle that is forever on the internet. And, good people stumble across it and believe it word for word. Again, it’s been renounced by the guy who wrote it as an unfair assessment of Mike Bickle and the Kansas City Prophets.

And I can assure you, the things you are writing about the Kansas City prophets are gross misrepresentations of what is coming forth there. My whole point in these blog posts has been to get people to temper their words because the stuff I’m seeing is bearing false witness against others in the Body of Christ (that’s one of the ten commandments). I am DIRECTLY connected to Kansas City and I can tell you that you are seriously misrepresenting what is being taught and drawing conclusions that are false. I am not hoping to convert you to what is actually being taught but I can tell you that you are grabbing onto fragments that emerge from a far larger teaching on the End Times that is coming from Kansas City. It’s is not a pre-trib teaching, nor is it unorthodox or even close to being outside the perimeters of historical Christian Doctrine. I’m guessing you are referring to the Omega Course – one of my closest friends put that entire thing together – I’ve been through it several times here and in Kansas City. It is a new variation of the Classic Premillenial Position which is the oldest eschatological position in the Christian Church. I’m sure Preterists will reject it and I know the “left-behind” pre-trib dispensationalists will reject it – but I’ve already stated in an earlier comment – there isn’t one verse that says the rapture precedes the tribulation. Talk about extraBiblical, the left-behind series is 13 volumes of stuff that is built on an inferences from Scripture not a Scripture passage. I say a bit more about that here.

You’ve Been Left Behind!

The Omega Course is solidly Biblical but it’s okay if you and others come to very different conclusions. What is not okay is to misrepresent the position and campaign against it false statements about it.

I chose to not comment on your Chuck Colson comment but I note now you want me to really consider it. Here’s what I’m thinking about that. Chuck Colson, though I highly admire and respect everything about him, all he says and does – I would point out he has NO theological credentials to be an expert on any of this. There are Ph.d’d Old and New Testament Scholars and theologians who are behind this – have you seen Dr. Gary Greig’s paper on the Lakeland Outpouring. Here’s the link there.

Click to access drGreg_biblicalperspective2008.pdf

If Franklin Graham blessed Lakeland or Church Swindoll or Rick Warren or whoever is in the “who’s who” of popular evangelicals did so I would be equally unmoved. The Word of God is the bottom line and I’ve seen nothing yet that would cause me to reject everything about this – I have said numerous times there are about six things I’d change if I were the boss of the revival, but I’m not.

I know about William Branham as well. Again you guys are misrepresenting what people mean when they praise William Branham. Bickle talks about this in his book too. Bentley wanting the “mantle” of William Branham means he wants a healing mantle. We all know in the last couple years of Branham’s life his doctrine shifted off the foundation and his ministry (and life) ended. But it’s like wanting Martin Luther King Jr.’s mantle for justice for the oppressed. Saying you want MLK’s mantle is not to say you are excited to embrace adultery. The majority of Branham’s life was a healing ministry – controversial – but so what, every move of God is controversial.

I encourage our people to be Bereans. But Bereans don’t publicly and unlovingly rip people apart who come to different conclusions than they do on “disputable matters” (Romans 14). I also teach our people to look at the fruit. Here is a list of fruit that I’ve noticed in my life since I hit the floor in Lakeland in May. I shared this list yesterday with the congregation here and called it the FRUIT OF THE GLORY

1) Increased intimacy and rest.
2) Increasing understanding and revelation of God
3) Increased power and anointing
4) Increased love and humility (Christlikeness)
5) Increased hunger for more of God and his Word
6) Decrease in sin and worldly appetite
7) Decrease in compromise
8) Decrease in defeat, sickness
9) Decrease in doubt.
10) Decrease in fleshly or vain striving

The list could be longer – urgency to reach lost with love and power of God, etc.

Blessings to you.

Jul 14, 2008 at 9:03 am

Christina

Christine and Lakeland Quotes,

Have you bothered to read or listen to anything from Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle, etc. or do you get all your info about them from outside sources? To make a sound and fair judgement, I would hope you would take the time to “hear both sides.” I have found that the best way to find out what one really thinks is to hear it from them personally, not to rely upon what others think they are saying. Anything can be written about someone on the internet or in books, but I would be hard pressed to believe any of it without checking into what that person has specifically written or spoke themselves.

I personally have read one of Todd’s books, The Reality of the Supernatural World, listened to a few of his teachings, and listened to a series by Mike Bickle called Encountering Jesus:Visitations, Revelations and Angelic Activity, A Prophetic History & Perspectives About The End-Times. Mike talked about what went on from before he went to Kansas City up until November 2002 when the series was recorded (a 12 hour audio series) I haven’t seen or heard anything in those two sources about the “omega generation.” Todd did speak about astral projection, but he did not promote it as something Christians should be doing. He spoke of it as something that the members of the occult, satanism, etc do, not as something we should be doing. Astral projection is the counterfit of the translation of the bible (for example Phillip after meeting with the eunuch in Acts).

Seek the truth. Don’t rely on hearsay, especially through the internet. Check out what Todd Bentley and Mike Bickle and others say themselves. You still might not like what they say, but at least you will have accurate information about their ideas.

Father, I ask in the name of Jesus that You would bless Christine and Lakeland Quotes, that You would lead them and guide them into Your truth. Amen.

Jul 14, 2008 at 10:59 am

todd bentley emma

[…] in the Body of Christ were given much to delight and gloat over. The lost watching world whttps://stevehickey.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/abc-nightline-features-todd-bentley-and-florida-healing-…Read “Todd Bentley: ‘Conversations with the Apostle Paul’ et al” at General Faith Forum… further […]

Jul 14, 2008 at 12:12 pm

LakelandQuotes

Yes, Christina, I’ve heard Todd publicly tell his tale of ‘his spirit’ being in another country, ministering to a lady while he was physically in the US (I think US). He said this should be common place with Christians.

This, I understand as “Astral Projection” and not the “translation of the entire body” as happened to Phillip in the Book of Acts.

And, yes, I had been watching Lakeland myself, so that I personally could see / hear what was being done / said….why? Because I have many friends embracing Lakeland.

And for my friends sake, as well as for the sake of the entire Body, I have posted some of the more outrageous statements made on the Lakeland Stage on my Blogsite, to show the Body what is actually being said (it is a transcribed / written form of YouTube I suppose).

Mr. Hickey. you wrote that it may not be ‘love’ to post the statements of Lakeland on line, (“love keeps no record of wrong”) and I have prayed about that, because yes, I too have made statements in the past which I don’t agree with today or wish I had never made.

There seems to be a different standard when one is actually TEACHING false doctrine or doctrines contrary to Biblical Truth, however, for it seems that in almost every New Testament Epistle, there is mention from the writer to ‘beware’ of false teachers or false prophets or false doctrine, and then a description of their teaching follows.

Because it is mentioned in almost every single NT Epistle, I see this starndard of public rebuking as being very imporatant to God, and that is why I believe it should be just as important to me and to the Body as a whole, today ….. we should be checking the doctrine that we allow into the Body, and we should be loudly refusing any doctrine that is incorrect.

But here is where we are disagreeing and where the confusion is seeping into the Body … is there any incorrect doctrine / teachings at Lakeland.

And so I feel that direct quotes from Lakeland’s teachers / speakers, posted on-line, will show the Body where / how Lakeland’s teachers are deviating from Truth, or will allow the Body to weigh their statements against the Written Word of God.

A couple of the most erroneous statements have been:
— Bob Jones telling that the angels Bentley sees may be UNCREATED angels … this contradicts scritpure which shows that all things were CREATED by God thru Christ
— Bentley and Jones teaching that VIBRATING opens Godly portals and closes demonic portals…. this is not found anywhere in the Bible, but it is found in occult teachings
— Bentley teaches that an ANGEL gives him “accelerated and accurate Words of Knowledge” …. this contradicts 1 Corinthians teaching of the HOLY SPIRIT giving such.

It is because of Lakeland’s ‘extra-Biblical’ and/or ‘occult-over-toned’ teachings, that I continue to post Lakeland Quotes on line.

I appreciate you allowing such an open dialogue between both parties of this Lakeland debate. I think this is fair to both sides as we each try to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling”.

May God continue to “sanctify us wholly, so that all of us may be preserved completely, spirit, soul, and body, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thess 5:23)

Lee.

Jul 14, 2008 at 3:28 pm

Steve Hickey

Lee – thanks for the follow up comments. I’m not a fan of public rebuke in relation to disputable doctrinal matters. I don’t have issue with angels bring messages (they are messengers/angelos). I don’t have issue with heavenly experiences where one is aware of being in two places at once. I have no personal experience with it but we had guy here in a prayer meeting trance-out and report later he did some intercession over a soldier in Iraq before rejoining the prayer meeting here. I’m not alarmed because I know we are seated with Christ in heavenly places and the heavenly realms are real and not bound by our physical limitations. I’m comfortable knowing Paul had wild heavenly experiences – not sure whether it was in body or out – but not to be the focus or a distraction – so he didn’t detail it for us. I’m real careful criticizing the prayer experiences and practices of other believers. I know there more than I’ve experienced to date.

There is increased understanding in the physics world about matter, sounds, frequencies (vibrating) and I’m comfortable with people using this terminology to articulate activity in the spiritual unseen dimensions of the created order – it doesn’t strike me as occultic at all. I am still baffled by “uncreated” angels – are you interpreting his words to mean they weren’t created, or that they lost their place as Holy Angels and were demoted to demons – or something of that sort?? Even here, are these things you feel are “errs in doctrine” substantial in terms of affecting salvation? In other words, do we have to have everything right or we are all wrong and therefore fair game for public chastisement? Blessings!

To all – I’m not sure what’s up with all the emotocons or whatever they are called. They showed up voluntarily in my comments too. It’s a bit weird, like talking to someone and having them wink, wink at you at inopportune times. Sorry.

Jul 14, 2008 at 7:19 pm

Christine

Hello again–

I’m not sure there is much merit in continuing this discussion, but I am interested in hearing what you believe I am misstating or grossly misrepresenting. In order for me to take your complaint seriously you need to supply proof. I am after the truth! Ernie Gruen’s fall (of which I was aware) doesn’t have any bearing on whether his report is accurate. He stands by his report to this day, and claims that he had tremendous support from the local pastors in Kansas City. So, please, if you wish, address my errors, supplying supporting documentation, if possible. (By the way, my priest knows Ernie and says he is a good man.)

Let’s return to Chuck Colson. I brought up Mr. Colson because he is a world-class thinker. He came to my area last fall and gave a most prescient, prophetic, incisive appraisal of the evangelical church, present and future. You say he is an unacceptable judge of Lakeland because he has no theological credentials. Well then, I also consulted a noted professor at one of the top evangelical seminaries in our country about what is happening in Lakeland.

At my request, this left-brain scholar of impeccable credentials watched Todd Bentley online one evening this past spring. He reported back later that as he watched he experienced a spiritual attack in his body (and he’s definitely not the kind of person to talk that way!) and said he will not watch again. Presently, he is building a file about the Lakeland experience. I believe him, because I experienced a similar, though more vicious, attack right after watching Todd. What power source is causing this? Anecdotal, I realize…..

You may think I’m saying that Todd is being wilfully disobedient. I don’t know what is in his heart. There is a critical difference between rebellion (going against God’s law knowingly) and deception (in which the deceived truly believes he/she is doing right). A person can most definitely be sincerely, fervently, dedicatedly, deceived.

You speak admiringlyof your friends in Kansas City who pray for 40 hours a week. That is admirable, but things like sincerity, fervor and commitment are absolutely no proof that a thing is spiritually sound. History books are littered with the results of fervor, sincerity and commitment expended in the name of error.

All for now, I guess. I remain unconvinced that what is happening in Lakeland is a genuine move of God.

Jul 14, 2008 at 7:38 pm

Christine

Sorry—I need to add that I know Ernie stands by his report, because he emailed me just three or four days ago to verify that he has never retracted his document, and that all he has written in the Aberrant Document is true. If you like, email him yourself. His address is: erniegruen@yahoo.com.

Jul 14, 2008 at 9:04 pm

Steve Hickey

Christine – I emailed him myself at that very address about ten minutes before you sent the address. I have no reason to doubt you. But I will say Ernie Gruen is sinking way way down again in my estimation of him – at one time he was pond scum to me and until you started telling me I’m wrong about his renouncement I viewed him again as a good man, but a shell of what he was before God demoted him.

Who is the seminary prof you are speaking of?

Did you say you have a priest? Anglican, catholic? Brace yourself as I make a point here. (What if I lumped you in with the Bible abandoning pro-gay camp of anglicans, or the Mary worshipping Catholics? That would be hurtful, and fully and absolutely unfair wouldn’t it? But this is happening daily against good people in KC – I’m tired of it – they are being called things they are not – people are misrepresenting them in a major way – they are being lumped in with the worst and the wackos (demons, new age, whatever). I’ve been very hurt by it personally. This is precisely why I’m taking the time to defend KC. When the online police attacked me unfairly and viciously I didn’t defend myself. But I am so thankful others cry “foul.” That’s what I’m doing with my blog posts on this topic.

I hear many people tell me they sense an anointing even from the TV or computer watching the revival. I haven’t heard yet what you describe – a spiritual attack. Frankly, people get attacked right before I speak sometimes too – the devil doesn’t want them to hear the Truth. Speaking at a camp once I literally had bats start swooping down at the crowd right as I was giving the altar call inviting people to Jesus. We need to pray before and during meetings against these types of attacks. The devil doesn’t want people to hear. Also I wonder if this prof was in such a strong mindset against the things of God – a critical spirit came after him. How’s that for a different view of what you describe? We do deliverance ministry here and I’ve come to an awareness of a spirit of suspicion that attacks people (my term). By that I mean someone will walk in the church and sense a demonic something coming from someone else, but its really the spirit of suspicion on them attacking them. And I know that a critical spirit leads to physical infirmity.

I’ve been in the prayer room here or there or where ever and I have also spent years in evangelical seminaries. In terms of critiquing Kansas City’s eschatology, it does very much matter that these teachings flow from a prayerful environment. The other eschatological positions all came from the generally prayerless environment of academia. I’ve been there while evangelical profs teach eschatology (pre-trib) and I’m not even sure they go to church let alone love Jesus. I never heard them pray. Have you heard of “higher criticism”? It’s a method of Biblical criticism that students in seminary for the last 150 years have been taught to approach God and the Bible. That is the seminary atmosphere. To hear a seminary prof is collecting a file (a record of wrongs) against Lakeland tells me the spirit of criticism is very much there, not love.

The one lives in the Tree of Life, innocent – Jesus is the Tree of Life. The other lives in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (which says “this is right, and you are wrong”). One is life and the other is death. It’s John 5 – Jesus says they diligently study the Scriptures that they may have life but they refuse to come to him to have life.

The specific points which I’m saying you have totally misrepresented are all the things you’ve mentioned about the Omega Course teaching a special race of super people – immortal bodies – misrepresenting Joel’s army – connecting KC to latter rain. The IHOP-KC website has documents clarifying their relationship to all these things. Do you know what they teach about those in the last days having immortal bodies?? It’s after Jesus returns and we have resurrection bodies when we are ruling with him in the Millennial Kingdom. That’s Biblical. It’s being false witness to say they are teaching of a super race.

I don’t need you to feel be convinced I’m right or Lakeland is right or the KC is right. I am just contending against people who feel the need to pass public and unmerciful judgment on disputable matters. If you don’t like KC doctrine, ignore it, don’t actively campaign against it with mis-information.

If youare honest about searching this out – you will read both sides. I recommend Bickle’s book which I mentioned earlier and an old book that was written right after Ernie blew this whole thing up in KC in the late 80’s. That book is called “Some Said It Thundered” by John White – it’s about the Kansas City prophets and I think it’s fair in its judgment. Most who think they are educated about something only read one view point- the easy to get, online view point from the anonymous unloving unaccountable doctrine police online. On most theological subjects I have both groups of books on my shelf – books for, and books against.

Blessings to you.

Jul 15, 2008 at 8:57 am

Christine

Steve,

The only campaign I am on is a campaign for the truth.

I think you’re being a little hasty here, taking some leaps I haven’t taken. The Omega Course is news to me; I know nothing about it. I’m referring to the whole concept of the Omega generation…. kids born betwen 1973 and 1990 with immortal bodies, the Phineas spirit, the triumphal overthrow of evil, the cleaned-up earth preceding Jesus’ return. Do correct me if I’m wrong….

I just heard Lou Engle in person refer to this concept only a week and a half ago. Granted, he didn’t outline all the particulars, but he referred to this triumphal package, saying, “Some of you may never have heard of this, but it’s true.” I believe these concepts appeared in the “blueprint” Mike Bickle handed out in the 80s, given to him by someone in Missouri. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

I think you need to know that 11 years ago my husband and I spent most of a year in a church affiliated with one of the original Kansas City leaders. There were improprieties and worse that went on under the Kansas City leader’s supervision. The internet is not the place to discuss particulars, nor is it the place to name names, but I am not talking in a vacuum here. That is why I don’t feel a need to read “the other side.” I lived it.

The professor I mentioned is a close personal friend of integrity and spiritual sensitivity. He is no spiritual lightweight. He has even spent time with Peter Wagner in California.You say he is building a file out of a critical spirit. I would guess he’s building a file from a concerned spirit. He deals with hundreds of seminarians who will go out and meet every type of movement in the church, and he needs to know how to prepare them. It is not my place to give his name out on the internet. He watched Todd Bentley as a personal favor, and has discussed it with me as a personal favor, also.

The reason, in fact, that I am in an Anglican church is directly related to the Lakeland phenomenon and the KC-linked church. I suffered spiritual malnutrition from the poor diet of extra-biblical concepts and “words from the Lord” that were not words from the Lord at all. We went straight to a charismatic Anglican church (where the ancient liturgy ensures that no personalities can grandstand) from that KC-linked church that grew crazier and crazier and finally self destructed. I put its demise down to emphasis on the extrabiblical. For me, it was exhausting, confusing, hyped-up and dangerous.

I thought of one last thing we might do. I’ll give you a list of when I’ll get involved in the Lakeland experience. Would you also consider giving me a list detailing when you would get out?

I Will Embrace the Lakeland Experience when:

1. The Bible is referred to much more frequently than personal experience.
2. The primary emphasis is on preaching repentance leading to life, rather than on healings and spiritual encounters.
3. There is some kind of accountability to the wider body of Christ.
4. Personalities fade, and the Spirit’s holiness and love are prominent instead.
5. The fruits of the Spirit have grown so that all can see them—love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self control.

If these things happen, count me in!

Jul 15, 2008 at 9:15 am

Christine

One last thing (in case our discussion is over).

I do like your heart!

Jul 15, 2008 at 9:17 am

Steve Hickey

Christine, we are at an impasse. Here’s my list detailing what might cause me to “get out” (actually I don’t really feel “in” anything).

1. When the personal experience starts to trump the Bible or contradict it.
2. When they stop emphasizing holiness and cease giving altar calls to win the lost
3. If they ever pull themselves out of accountability to the repudable leaders they intentionally invited to oversee them.
4. If the focus starts to center on a man (all the man talks about is Jesus).
5. When the fruit of the Spirit is not evident in those who leads the meetings or in those who have been touched in the meetings.

If these things happen, I’ll distance myself. But I still won’t embark on a crusade against others in the Body of Christ.

The ancient liturgy? Make sure it never trumps the Bible like you say Bentley is. You see how easy it is to attack each other. My entire point has not been to defend anybody but stand against the tide of those who shoot arrows at others in the Body of Christ. Blessings to you.

Jul 15, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Christine

Steve,

The most dangerous societies in the world allow no place for the critic.

The critic is indispensable to maintaining the health of the Body of Christ.

I don’t believe that what I am doing is rightly called shooting arrows at people (to wound and kill). For me, this is not an ad hominem cause. I am trying to post stop, yield and detour signs to warn fellow travelers about dangerous conditions on the path ahead. But, I agree that we are at an impasse, so I will say goodbye, and end by wishing you well in the Lord as a brother in Christ.

P.S.–Just a note about the liturgy: When Thomas Cranmer composed the Anglican Book of Common Prayer in the 16th century, he used passages of scripture as the basis of the text. My rector likes to tell about a TV star who was converted to Christ in his previous parish. After she began to read her Bible, she found him one Sunday and exclaimed, “How amazing it is that so much of the Prayer Book is in the Bible!”

Jul 15, 2008 at 7:19 pm

Susankps

I think some of the most valuable fruit we’re seeing regarding Lakeland is the Christian venom being spewed across the web. Yes, seriously. It’s bringing to the surface something that’s been around for a very long time and I believe needs much prayer, contemplation and discussion.

How can Christians speak hatefully (murderously) about ANYONE, let alone a Christian brother? In my opinion, the root is “hell theology”. As it is for many issues of trust and love in the body of Christ.

If God can allow anyone to roast for eternity because of their sins, what’s a little hot air in the temporal realm? Aren’t we simply behaving as we believe our Heavenly Father behaves?

Jul 15, 2008 at 10:14 pm

Steve Hickey

Christine – Blessings! I fully agree the Book of Prayer is saturated in Scripture! You will not be led wrong by that book. I meant the comment to make a different point. I honor Anglicans holding true today.

Susan -Thanks for telling it like it is! I’m to the end of my energy to speak a graceful word into this hostile environment. Look for new life-giving posts from me in the days ahead. God is good and there is a lot of good stuff to focus on. Whatever is praiseworthy, think about such things!

Jul 16, 2008 at 4:50 am

rahabsplace

Steve,

I saw a post by Ernie over at the Greycoats where he says he never retracted a word and is justified in everything that he said about Bickle and Co. And just for the record, he never moved out of pond scum status for me. He destroyed a woman’s marriage, but his is fine now, thank you, so that makes everything okay. He has zero credibility or significance and is using this to try to recapture some glory, since he no longer has any real ministry to speak of.

Now I read parts of that damnable document back in the day and I know that Ernie lifted quotes, especially from Paul Cain, out of context and inaccurately quoted him. I was in the meetings and had the tapes, and I’m telling you he deliberately misrepresented the teaching of KCF and the words the prophetic people had given.

I was at the conference where Mike, John Wimber and Paul Cain confronted ol’ Ernie. This was just before he decamped for Atlanta with Karen. John Wimber said that Ernie agreed to suspend the war. He agreed to withdraw circulation of THE REPORT and cease hostilities. He even admitted he found Paul Cain to be a godly man. This was Wimber’s report. Mike stood and repented of some inaccuracies that had occurred in the reporting of events in the tape series called “A Prophetic History of KCF.” They were earth-shattering heresies like getting the exact dates of the drought (which did happen) wrong and the exact number of people who had died in the church Bob Jones attended when he had given a warning that God was going to take some folk out for their immorality.

Interestingly enough, I found a document recently where Bob Jones talked about one of the things that frustrated him so much during that time was that he KNEW Ernie was in adultery but couldn’t say anything. That had to be hard, being called a false prophet by an adulterer.

Jul 16, 2008 at 6:39 am

Steve Hickey

rahabsplace – I did get curt reply from Ernie. Actually it wasn’t really a reply – just a reply of three attachments which basically said he recants nothing. So I stand corrected. No sentence back to me or anything. I did reply back noting the total absence of any expression of remorse for the effect of his adultery on my life. I noted how it spoke volumes to me at the time, and still does that he was writing his now famous paper WHILE he was committing adultery. Actually I said quite a bit more than that. I’m not expecting him to respond. I was nice in my email but I was specific about a few things.

I appreciate very much what you’ve written.

Jul 16, 2008 at 8:25 am

Christine

Hi–

I checked back to get my final farewell and found Susan’s comment on the way to checking out. So I’m back. Susan, I’m curious to explore a little more what you are saying. Are you objecting only to what you feel is the hateful flavor of these discussions (and I certainly apologize to you or anyone on here if anything I said came across as hateful!), or are you also saying that you do not believe that God will finally judge the earth and send some people to a literal hell? Just curious…..worth some dialogue.

Jul 16, 2008 at 1:56 pm

Tammy

Hello,

My head is spinning from all the statements and long literary comments (that was a compliment).

I do not believe in attacking anyone as I was once attackworthy and will be again I fear. I once felt like the woman being brought to Jesus by those religious leaders who wanted to stone her only to be set free by Jesus himself. I have no right, only Jesus died on the Cross, therefore He has the only right to judge.

As far as Todd Bentley, I believe that God’s hand is in everything on this earth including the Nightline interview. God reveals, educates, and brings to light things overlooked. I love the fact that that young man’s faith was brought to light. He believe God would heal him. Why he needed to go to Lakeland I have no idea, maybe the church he attended got so used to saying get used to it, your crippled, and that was just not in him to do, so he went somewhere he could hear you don’t have to be used to it. Maybe he read in the Bible that Jesus was willing to heal. So what if he was stumbling over himself physically, how many times do we stumble over ourselves getting to God and what He really wants for us. Speaking of stumbling, I am not a follower of the Lakeland Revival, I have some definite things that I find are questionable and I will not go into it at this time, because I pray about them and let the God of Heaven deal with it either in me or in those of leadership in the revival or whatever word is not such a sore spot for some. I will say, I have not been, watched it twice on GodTV, could not stand what I sensed from the Holy Spirit, turned it off, prayed and obeyed on not turning it back on.

Now finishing my statement, speaking of stumbling, what is this nitpicking going on over words not finished saying such as they thinking he said holy goat. Come on, am I the only one who has gotten excited about something and totally said the word wrong or not say the the word completely. In the words of the Holy Spirit who cornered me on judging once, “Get over yourself.”

God knows the end from the beginning, right? I can see that some correcting has gone on behind the scenes on issues I was praying for him over, so since God has this whole thing well in hand, I say Go God and I will just leave it in his capable hands. In the meantime, those who keep God looking good in all this, like you Steve, keep doing as your doing. Those who constantly attack, Get over yourselves before God has to get you over you. I find a kind word does turn away wrath, so I leave this final line with you.

Thank you for reading my comment. God bless you and He definitely will because He loves to lavish His love on His children.

Peace.

Sep 27, 2009 at 10:17 pm

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