For years now I’ve been answering questions each week that people email me in relation to what I’m teaching or what they are learning about the things of God. Some I can answer quickly, others I spend more time on. I call this D-MAIL for discipleship mail. The blog is a perfect place for me to let many others in on what we are talking about so we can grow together in our understanding of God and Scripture. This question came via a recent comment on one of my Todd Bentley and the Florida Healing Outpouring blog posts.
QUESTION: Pastor Steve, I saw a teaching Bob Jones, Todd Bentley and Patricia King did on the third heaven. I searched the Bible on this and could find only one scripture (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) where Paul lightly touches on the third heaven, yet they have made whole teachings on how to get there etc. Could you explain to me if there are any other references to a third heaven in the Bible and what exactly are we talking about here and how it is possible that going up to the third heaven 3 times a day (as Bob Jones and Patricia King say they do) can be a better substitute than just reading and obeying Gods written Word?
MY RESPONSE: Paul’s reference to his third heaven experience rubber stamps (as being true and accurate) a whole other body of Jewish writing and tradition regarding a layered heavenly realm. A third heaven implies a first and a second. The ancient rabbi’s constructed a multi-layered world, sort of like a large onion composed of various layers with the physical world in which human beings lived at the center.
I’ll plop in a couple quotes here from other sources:
“These layers were called “firmament” or shamayim (heavens or sky) in the Old Testament or “heavens” in the New Testament era. There are many other non-Biblical books and writings that also describe these layers. This model was still in use in the Middle Ages (1400s AD) when Dante wrote of the various levels of heaven and hell. Most often this model contained seven heavens but in a few writings there were only three layers. Even though the number of layers was different these models of the universe shared some common traits. The lowest heaven, the core of the “onion,” is the visible physical world that all people can see.”
“The Bible refers to three “heavens.” We learn in Genesis chapter 1 verses 6 and 7 that God created the firmament. He called this firmament “heaven” in verse 8. The Sun and Moon were placed in part of it (verses 16 to 18), and birds fly in another part (verse 20). We would typically refer to these “two heavens” as outer space and our atmosphere. The third heaven (referred to in 2 Corinthians chapter 12 verses 2-4 among other places), would be the spiritual realm where God and the angels reside.”
Other references to the third heaven are not as clear but include: Deuteronomy 10:14 and 1 Kings 8:27 . Those who talk about the third heaven have much more than one Scripture to base this on. But even if there was only one remote reference, it’s still there, it’s still God-breathed and useful for teaching.
In the 2 Corinthians 12 passage Paul speaks of these “surpassing great revelations” which, literally rendered reads “abundance of revelations.” It’s probable Paul had numerous and frequent experiences in the heavenly realms. Importantly, there is no verse that says this doesn’t happen today. In fact we are encouraged to set our minds on heavenly things (Col. 3:2) – it actually says set your affections on heavenly things. We need to love God and everything surrounding God in the heavenly places.
Scripture says we can approach the throne of grace with confidence (Heb. 4). Is the throne a literal place? I believe it is, though not in the natural realm. But, most only spiritualize this verse? Revelation 4 speaks of the throne and John describes it vividly (because Jesus invited him to “come up here” and see). We too need to press in with our praying to these real places in the heavenly realms. We are seated with Christ in these heavenly places. Timidity and hesitancy regarding heavenly places is not what God wants. The death of Jesus ripped the veil.
What I see going on is the “membrane” between the natural and supernatural worlds is very thin right now. Perhaps this is due to the prayer movement and the fervent seeking of God we see in our day. Many people are frequent in going back and forth between these realms. I’ve had a few experiences myself – they changed my life and I’d welcome them 10 times a day. Some days I just put my Bible on the table, close my eyes and seek his face. I’m thankful Todd Bentley is having heavenly experiences. These should be normal part of the Christian life. Why do we all sing – “open the eyes of my heart Lord I want to see you – high and lifted up, shining in the light of your glory” – and then write off Bentley and others as goofy because they speak of actually seeing with the eyes of the heart the Lord high and lifted up, shining in the Light of his glory?
Your comment about this perhaps being a substitute for reading and obeying God’s Word confuses me a bit. I don’t believe any of the people you mention would say heavenly experiences substitute or render unnessesary time in God’s Word. But, let’s be careful here. We don’t worship God’s Word – it merely reveals him. He is what we seek. We go to the Word for a greater revelation of Him. I love God’s Word because it’s from him, but he is the prize and time with him is to be sought. Trained as an evangelical, my testimony is that my Trinity used to be Father, Son and Holy Scriptures. I’m so thankful God released his Spirit into my life and awakened my heart to the reality of the spiritual realm. The stunning thing was to discover all this is in the Scriptures after all.
This will mess with some but Bentley says things like – “I receive more from one hour of soaking than I do reading fifty Bible chapters, because God instructs me in stillness.” Some read that and hear Bentley saying “we don’t need the Bible we just need to be with God.” Or worse, they mis-interpret him to say “what I’m getting from God is more important or authoritative than the Bible.” But he’s saying neither of these things. He’s not saying there is no need to read the Bible or that it’s okay if the Lord shows us something that contradicts the Bible. He’s merely underscoring the richness of time in the presence of God.
Jesus in John 5:39-40 referred to “those who diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”
10 comments
June 10, 2008 at 6:38 am
completefaith
I greatly enjoyed this read this morning.
Thank you for sharing.
June 10, 2008 at 6:39 am
PC
Awesome teaching Steve!
June 10, 2008 at 11:18 am
Nikole
Steve, all of your blogs from yesterday were awesome. Thanks for all of the time and effort you put into blogging. I hope you know how much it is appreciated!
June 10, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Florida Healing Outpouring - Is Todd Bentley a New Age Mystic? « Gate Post
[...] against. Some may wonder why I’m now tackling the more controversial points – the Angel Emma, Third Heaven Experiences, is this Kundalini, Violence and the Kingdom of God. It would be easier to say nothing, there is [...]
June 10, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Patricia Burns
In the height of heaven (Job 22:12), in the third heaven (2 Cor.12:2) God (Isa.44:6, Isa.45:5) inhabits Eternity (Isa.57:15) and dwells in Zion (Joel 3:21, Ps.23:6), the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb.12:22).
Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982
July 24, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Kev alias Keith
No Steve, you didn’t “ban me”. You just deleted or blocked my posts, and grossly misrepresented them, even – to my surprise and astonishment – attacking my character to your other contributors. Your very first comment to me was, ironically, “I encourage you to not bear false witness against others who hold different interpretations of the Word of God than you.”
When I asked you to publicly correct the aggressive falsehoods that you published over my posts, you went half way instead by just deleting the entire blogg. I forgave and was quite intending to leave the issue there. Seeing however, you have chosen to take another public sideswipe at me, even although you have my private email address and have never used it, and as it is becoming apparent to me that discrediting and silencing without right of reply is a common practice in here I am going to set the record straight, because this tactic is a very common “red flag” that all is not as it should be.
First though, there was nothing in my most recent post (unpublished and giving rise to your latest side-swipe) that you could possibly have taken personal offense from, except the fact that I was in agreement with Dawn over the issue of deception in many “healing” meetings.
In my earliest posts (none of which incidentally contained anything you could call “curses”, or even personal criticism), I was unaware that you are the Pastor of a church, because I hadn’t spent time in the blogg going through it to properly understand it, and I think, for that I owe you an apology. I responded to posts and took part in a discussion before understanding the community I was in and for that, I do apologise. …(more)
July 24, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Kev alias Keith
I see that you have implemented moderation apparently across the board, so that even an alternative email address is censored now to ensure that the truth cannot be told. Nevertheless, for your benefit alone then, I will submit the remainder of this message.
Steve, I cannot blame you for not wanting this to go public, but there is still time to do the honourable thing and at least correct the falsehoods you have told about my posts.
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Re: your “loung-room” point; in actuality this is NOT your lounge-room, but a very public venue on the internet into which, you have allowed people the world over to read and contribute, apparently provided they don’t disagree with your theology. If you want to make it a virtual extension of your lounge-room and totally closed to theological debate however, you can do that by making it a subscription/password protected site. You have that right.
Once allowed in to participate, people like Dawn deserve respect, and even the opportunity to receive encouragement and agreement from other participants. For that reason, I am going to reproduce below my latest post that you blocked. First though, I’m going to set the record straight on your comments concerning my earlier posts:
First, the “demonic tattoos”. I didn’t even mention them! What I asked you was why Todd wears a FIVE POINTED STAR on his T-SHIRT. The difference is immense; the first (as I understand it) being very difficult and expensive to remove over a considerable time period. The second is simply applied to a T-shirt. Contrary to your claim, I can’t find anywhere in this site where you have addressed that question. I would still like to know how he justifies it, given his claimed occult background and obvious knowledge of the evil meanings that wiccans (ie witches) and New Agers will derive from it.
Second, the “curses” comment. I could happily produce every message unedited to demonstrate that nothing could be construed as a curse! I neither cursed you nor posted a string of personal criticisms. You interpreted my honest, to-the-point questions as “baiting” – which necessarily had you passing judgment on my motives. You misquoted and part-quoted scripture, which I pointed out and simply demonstrated was out of context and wrong use of the passage.
You also said, “you crossed the line with the numerous untrue and personally offensive comments about the fruit I’ve written about”. While my comment, in answer to your “4) Increased love and humility (Christlikeness)” was, “4)That’s great, and I won’t deny the working of God’s Spirit within you.” I also asked questions of clarification, concerning other “fruit” comments you made because adherents to false religions can also make the same claims. The only comment that you could have taken personal umbridge from was in answer to your “5) Increased hunger for more of God and his Word”. I replied, “5) His Word. I truly hope so, because, as I said its all that matters because from it comes all the truth we needto mature us in Christ and keep us in these days of deception. However, if you perceive face kicks and wrestling moves as Godly ministry I am justifiably skeptical that you are soaking in the Word. unless, of course you are a very, very new Christian”.
I APOLOGISE UNRESERVEDLY for the “new Christian” comment. As I said earlier, I was unaware at that time that you are a pastor, and I do believe the office warrants respect not reflected in that comment. I further acknowledge that, as a pastor you would have far more background in Bible study than I gave you credit for. However I am still left wondering how you can scripturally justify such behaviour that has no resemblance to “all things being done decently and in order”.
I shall only comment on one more of your statements: You said, “…you are hard and love doctrine more than Jesus”. I made the point in my unpublished reply:
“Doctrine” has become a hated word by many Christians during these times, although it was the first stated priority in the habits of the Church in Acts (see Acts 2:42). But to set it off against “love for Jesus” is diabolic. Are the doctrines of sin and salvation, of Heaven and Hell, and of the truth and deception that can make the difference, somehow at enmity with loving the Lord Jesus Christ? That is like telling someone that he loves preaching to the lost more than he loves Jesus.
Finally, I did ask you, IN TWO POSTS, to show me where I had borne false witness, first “Can you be specific Steve, because if I have done so its serious and I need to know and withdraw any false comments I made.” And second, “If I have indeed born false witness, please forgive and correct me.
My very last comment to you was, “His peace be upon you my brother as you consider these issues (and hopefully forgive me where I have allowed my own indignation to come through. I’m human too.”
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July 24, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Kev alias Keith
By the way, Steve, whatever else we disagree on I do want to acknowledge and thank you for your courageous stand over abortion. There are, in fact statements made by two women who have set up chains of abortion clinics and are also wiccans that align abortion with child sacrifice. I forget the details, but the connection is there.
July 26, 2008 at 6:28 am
Keith
Steve, thanks for your integrity in allowing my last posts through. It is so easy for motives to be misread, and it is enough to put it behind us and forgive. It is good when brothers in Christ with differences move toward each other in reconciliation, and I pray God will bless your ministry, and your church while leading us both on in fuller understanding.
July 26, 2008 at 7:06 am
Steve Hickey
Keith – Blessings to you as well!