I’m shutting down dialog on this post. Enough said!

Two points:
1. God is not limited by our understanding of how we think He works.
2. Sometimes we need to move (even if we don’t feel like it!) so He can accomplish His purpose for our lives.

We Christians can get a little to comfy in our thinking and miss out on the great plans He has for us because of our rigid religious mindsets. We need to embrace more of the Breath, more of the Glory and more of Holy Spirit of God for us to be useful to Him.

Absoulty not!! What I am saying is Todd Bentley has some pretty, contrary to the bible beliefs,(or at least what i read the bible to believe and say) in his visions which makes me question them and wonder how he can make teachings out of them. It is very easy for us as christians to be dependent on the experience rather then scripture, not using the bible to prove what we experienced. The way i see it is like this. There is no formula on how to get to third heaven or have visions and dreams. Jesus never taught us how to get to the third heaven and so I dont think we have the ability or know how in how to teach others to get there. Bottom line there is no formula and to think we can write books on how to get people there is ridiclous. If there was a formula on how to get there it would be in the bible. I believe God wants to give us visions dreams and revelations I just don’t think we can duplicate the same experience time and time again. Thats all Im saying nothing more then that:)

I like you Steve! and I appreciate your heart in this matter:)

In regards to this statement. Isnt it obvious Birds of a feather flock together, and doesn that clue you in on the fact that Todd Bentley runs in those circles so why wouldnt they come???

I do agree we as christians do this. But what they are teaching and doing goes well beyond this song:)

I could debate the spiritual realm and theology all day long( and yes I agree there is a spiritual realm but I dont agree that we need to seek after it and make teachings about how to live in it daily) but there just isnt enough time. I whole heartidly agree with you that we all need to spend time in Gods presence reading the word and hearing Gods voice, but again I wouldnt make a doctrine out of teaching people how to get to the third heaven I dont find scripture anywere that Jesus or his discipiles taught us to do so. In fact in 2 Cor as you qouted saying Paul “surpassing Great revelations”doesnt say that in my bible it says Paul says”I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord”. I believe God gives us visions and revelations, but I definelty dont think he wants us to to chase after them. That scripture goes on to say ‘I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Wheather it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God Knows. was caught up to paradise. he heard inexpressiable things, things that man is not permitted to tell”. I hardly think this is the case to teach third heavens, not even Paul taught it and in fact it says “were not permitted to tell” so how do we have all these visions and dreams and make prophecies out of them, when it says right there he “wasnt permitted to tell”.

Titus 4:16 says “he must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
Tim 4;16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Perserve in them, bcause if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with wisdom, and as you sing psalms,hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
And there are many many more. Its not about being religious, its about reading the word and having the scrpitures come to life and know who God is and what he wants for your life. All you need to know to survive and live and abudant life is in the scriptures. Hes the same yesterday, today, and always he never changes, so what makes us think that in the 21st century he would want us to do a “new thing” to get closer to him.
And in regards to your last scripture John 5:39-40. Jesus was speaking to the Jews who didnt believe he was the messiah period. I would hardly take that as a verse to prove your point.
My point is this God already “has a deep relationship” with his people through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. If you want that deeper relationship read and obey his word and everything else he promised or spoke of in the bible will come. And if you never have a dream or vision remember this “Because you have seen me, you have believed;blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed”.John 20:29
Steve thank you again. I pray the Lord bless you and your church. I have found this great debate very enlightening:)

I’ll plop in a couple quotes here from other sources:

“These layers were called “firmament” or shamayim (heavens or sky) in the Old Testament or “heavens” in the New Testament era. There are many other non-Biblical books and writings that also describe these layers. This model was still in use in the Middle Ages (1400s AD) when Dante wrote of the various levels of heaven and hell. Most often this model contained seven heavens but in a few writings there were only three layers. Even though the number of layers was different these models of the universe shared some common traits. The lowest heaven, the core of the “onion,” is the visible physical world that all people can see.”

“The Bible refers to three “heavens.” We learn in Genesis chapter 1 verses 6 and 7 that God created the firmament. He called this firmament “heaven” in verse 8. The Sun and Moon were placed in part of it (verses 16 to 18), and birds fly in another part (verse 20). We would typically refer to these “two heavens” as outer space and our atmosphere. The third heaven (referred to in 2 Corinthians chapter 12 verses 2-4 among other places), would be the spiritual realm where God and the angels reside.”

Other references to the third heaven are not as clear but include: Deuteronomy 10:14 and 1 Kings 8:27 . Those who talk about the third heaven have much more than one Scripture to base this on. But even if there was only one remote reference, it’s still there, it’s still God-breathed and useful for teaching.

In the 2 Corinthians 12 passage Paul speaks of these “surpassing great revelations” which, literally rendered reads “abundance of revelations.” It’s probably Paul had numerous and frequent experiences in the heavenly realms. Importantly, there is no verse that says this doesn’t happen today. In fact we are encouraged to set our minds on heavenly things (Col. 3:2) - it actually says set your affections on heavenly things. We need to love God and everything surrounding God in the heavenly places.

Scripture says we can approach the throne of grace with confidence (Heb. 4). Is the throne a literal place? I believe it is, though not in the natural realm. But, most only spiritualize this verse? Revelation 4 speaks of the throne and John describes it vividly (because Jesus invited him to “come up here” and see). We too need to press in with our praying to these real places in the heavenly realms. We are seated with Christ in these heavenly places. Timidity and hesitancy regarding heavenly places is not what God wants. The death of Jesus ripped the veil.

What I see going on is the “membrane” between the natural and supernatural worlds is very thin right now. Perhaps this is due to the prayer movement and the fervent seeking of God we see in our day. Many people are frequent in going back and forth between these realms. I’ve had a few experiences myself - they changed my life and I’d welcome them 10 times a day. Some days I just put my Bible on the table, close my eyes and seek his face. I’m thankful Todd Bentley is having heavenly experiences. These should be normal part of the Christian life. Why do we all sing - “open the eyes of my heart Lord I want to see you - high and lifted up, shining in the light of your glory” - and then write off Bentley and others as goofy because they speak of actually seeing with the eyes of the heart the Lord high and lifted up, shining in the Light of his glory?

Your comment about this perhaps being a substitute for reading and obeying God’s Word confuses me a bit. I don’t believe any of the people you mention would say heavenly experiences substitute or render unnessesary time in God’s Word. But, let’s be careful here. We don’t worship God’s Word - it merely reveals him. He is what we seek. We go to the Word for a greater revelation of Him. I love God’s Word because it’s from him, but he is the prize and time with him is to be sought. Trained as an evangelical, my testimony is that my Trinity used to be Father, Son and Holy Scriptures. I’m so thankful God released his Spirit into my life and awakened my heart to the reality of the spiritual realm. The stunning thing was to discover all this is in the Scriptures after all.

This will mess with some but Bentley says things like - “I receive more from one hour of soaking than I do reading fifty Bible chapters, because God instructs me in stillness.” Some read that and hear Bentley saying “we don’t need the Bible we just need to be with God.” Or worse, they mis-interpret him to say “what I’m getting from God is more important or authoritative than the Bible.” But he’s saying neither of these things. He’s not saying there is no need to read the Bible or that it’s okay if the Lord shows us something that contradicts the Bible. He’s merely underscoring the richness of time in the presence of God.

Jesus in John 5:39-40 referred to “those who diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

PS- So others could benefit from our dialog I decided to turn this into a full blog post. : )

Steve, Once again your wisdom has amazed me. I’m glad this blog on Bentley has been so friendly. (Ha HA) One more comment will be 100! I look forward to your teaching on biblical mystics.